Muir marriages in 1808

[Oliver Russell]

Hi folks, I have recently found a very surprising coincidence and wonder if anyone can shed light on the chances of this happening. I have found entries for two marriages in 1808 between a John Muir and a Mary Prentice ! It seems to be to be extraordinary for two couples with the same names to be married the same year but this does seem to be the case. The first marriage took place between John Muir and Mary Prentice in Edinburgh in the parish of St Cuthbert’s, Edinburgh. Banns for John Muir of St Cuthbert’s Edinburgh and Mary Prentice of Culter were proclaimed in Culter on Feb 1st 1808 and they were married in Edinburgh in March 1808. The names of two children of John Muir and Mary Prentice (of Edinburgh) are recorded in Scotland online: John Muir born 3rd July 1811 and Euphemia Muir born 5th Sept 1813. But I could find no records of any other children born to this couple.
The second Muir/Prentice marriage took place in West Lothian (or Linlithgowshire as it was then called) on 1st November 1808 in Livingston where the banns were called between John Muir and Mary Prentice. On 13th November 1808 John Muir and Mary Prentice were married in Whitburn, West Lothian – “John Muir here and Mary Prentice, Livingston” . However I could find no baptismal records relating to any offspring of this couple.
John Muir is a common name but the coincidence seems very odd. Can anyone recognise these marriages ? Oliver

[tree]

Dear Oliver:

It's not entirely impossible that there were 2 couples of the same name, especially since they were m. in 2 different yrs. in 2 different cities and counties, especially with "John MUIR" being such a common name. In fact, out of all my research on MUIRs, I believe that "John" is the most common male name among MUIRs. In my database, I know of over 2000+ (without even doing an actual count, it may be quite a few more). James & William are probably the other 2 most common male names among MUIRs. As far as the couple that you mentioned, I really can't say if they were 2 seperate couples or the same one, although I would lean toward the possibility of 2. I do know of children that the one m. in 1807 in Livingston, West Lothian, Scotand, inc. some who were in the US, but don't know of children for the other (which would be a "possible reason" for the 2 couples to be the same, unless the 2nd couple may not have had any children). My info info (extensive as it is) is by no means complete. A 2nd couple may have had children that I don't know of yet. This is getting to be a "rambling paragraph," but ... One looking more closely at this info on FamilySearch,org and in my database, doesn't look like this is such an easy "riddle" to solve. Will take more time for sure.

Randy

[Oliver Russell]

Hi Randy, Thanks for your comments. (Incidentally the marriages were both in 1808 - not in two different years). This information came to light when I was responding to George Muir's request for help with identifying his ancestors (see our exchanges). It seems to me likely that some people have been mistakenly using the on line information about the 1808 John Muir-Mary Prentice marriages to justify the relationships which they have claimed on their family trees. I shall continue to try and tease out what has been happening but guess that it may not be possible to reach definite conclusions. Good wishes, Oliver

[tree]

Dear Oliver:

Always a sincere pleasure to hear from you. PLEASE keep me informed on anythng you may find out on this ... and if you come upon any "new" MUIR info. So many times this research is "relative." (pun intended).

Randy

[Oliver Russell]

Dear Randy, Thanks for your further message about the two marriages in one year. I have had a response from someone who was related to Mary Prentice but she could throw no light on this puzzle. She was descended from Mary's brother. This story started when someone contacted me for help in tracing his Muir ancestry. He believed that his ancestor John Muir was born in Lanarkshire in 1777. He also knew that John Muir had married a Mary Prentice in 1807. He told me that he was descended through John Muir’s son William Muir (Billy) born 18th October 1809. He also believed that William had a sister called Frances (Fannie) born in 1813. He thought that John Muir and Mary Prentice might have had seven or eight children altogether: Mary born 1808, William b 18th Oct 1809, James born July 1811, Frances (Fannie) born 1813 (and died 13th November 1872 in Scotchridge, Ohio), Jane born 11th January 1820, Samuel born August 18th 1822, John Jr in 1825 and Margaret no dates. But I found that I was unable to link any of these children to John Muir and Mary Prentice.

I found in Scotland on line records that Mary Prentice was baptised 26th March 1786 in Carnwath. Her parents were James Prentice and Margaret Meikle. She died in Ohio in 1857. John Muir was baptized in Carnwath on 18th June 1777. His parents were William Muir and Frances Somerville. John Muir died 9th June 1867 in Scotchridge, Woods, Ohio. Banns were called for John Muir and Mary Prentice on November 1st 1808 in Livingston, Linlithgowshire and they were married on 18th November in Whitburn, Linlithgowshire.

After viewing eight different public Muir family trees on the Ancestry.com website I have come to the view that John Muir and Mary Prentice had five children. There is a suggestion that they emigrated to Canada in 1821 but their earlier offspring must have been born in Scotland. William b 1809, James b 1811, Samuel 1821, John 1824, and Margaret b 1828 but none of them are to be found on the Scotland on line parish baptismal lists. But were these the children on the John Muir and Mary Prentice that we were looking at ? On the basis of what we know about Scottish nineteenth century naming patterns we would expect that their first born boy would be named after the paternal grandfather, (William), the second boy after the maternal grandfather (James), the first girl after the maternal grandmother (Margaret), the second girl after the paternal grandmother (but no second daughter). This fits with John Muir and Mary Prentice although there was only one daughter, hence the paternal grandmother’s name (Frances) was never used. I guess that this makes it highly likely that the John Muir and Mary Prentice who were baptized in Carnwath moved to Livingston before they married. There is circumstantial evidence in support of this as follows.

The John Muir who was baptised in the parish of Carnwath on 18th June 1777 had three sisters: Margaret, b 1771, Jean b 1774 and Janet b 1779. From another family tree I found that Janet Muir married Alexander Thompson in Whitburn, Linlithgow in 1810 and died in Switzerland, Indiana, USA in 1872. I take it that these people were related..

The John Muir/ Mary Prentice marriage in 1808 in St Cuthbert’s Edinburgh that I found must have been an entirely unconnected couple. (They had two children William born 3rd July 1811 and Euphemia born 5th September 1813. )

But there are many puzzles left in this story. What of Frances(Fannie) born in 1813 ? From a completely different Muir family I have found two children born in Dalserf, Lanarkshire whose baptisms do fit with the dates which my contact gave me: “ William Muir born to John Muir in Dalserf village and Mary Harvey, a natural child, was born 6th July 1809, baptised 8th October 1809”. (A natural child is an illegitimate child). A year later in Dalserf another child was born to John Muir - this was Alicia born 16th December 1810 to John Muir and Elizabeth Henry and three years later a third child, Frances Muir, who was baptised 31st October 1813 born to John Muir and Elizabeth Henry. However I have not been able to find a marriage record between John Muir and Elizabeth Henry. Thus it appears that the dates for William Muir and Frances Muir given me fit an entirely different family

None of the seven children born to John Muir and Mary Prentice show up in the records. But two names (William Muir and Frances Muir) with the correct dates do turn up but with different parents. Any suggestions ? A strange puzzle. Maybe we’ll find out in due course. Best wishes, Oliver

[tree]

Dear Oliver:

You're impressive ... You really pay attention to details. You sorta remind me of a scientist or detective or someone else who's good about "ferreting out" details. That's a good quality to me. I've been accused (many yrs. ago) of being a good "generalist" ... knowing a little about a lot of different subjects, but not much about any one subject. That's okay, too. I'm usually not too thin-skinned (or thick-skinned either).

I'll be looking at the above info and trying to incorporate it more thoroughly. I do so appreciate your sharing.

BTW. I do know of another John & Mary (PRENTICE) marriage. I know less about this family. John was a plumber in Greenock in 1894, when Mary died. They had 2 sons that I know of: William b. 1868 in Greenock; and Andrew b. 1870, also in Greenock. That's the extent of what I know on that family.

Randy

[tree]

Dear Oliver:

As far as the John & Elizabeth (HENRY) MUIR family, below is the info I have. I don't have anything else connected to it yet.

Randy

Family Group Sheet
==========================================================================================
Husband: John MUIR
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Birth: abt 1768
Residence: aft 1768 Dalserf (Lanark), Scotland
Marriage: 12 Jan 1791 Cambusnethan (Lanark), Scotland
Father:
Mother:
==========================================================================================
Wife: Elizabeth HENRY
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Father:
Mother:
==========================================================================================
Children
==========================================================================================
1 F Catharine MUIR
Birth: 7 Jul 1793 Cambusnethan (Lanark), Scotland
Chr: 14 Jul 1793 Cambusnethan (Lanark), Scotland
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 F Elisabeth Stewart MUIR
Birth: 7 Jul 1799 Dalserf (Lanark), Scotland
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 F Mary MUIR
Chr: 25 Feb 1807 Dalserf (Lanark), Scotland
Birth: abt 1807
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 F Alicia MUIR
Birth: 18 Nov 1810 Dalserf (Lanark), Scotland
Chr: 18 Nov 1810 Dalserf (Lanark), Scotland
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 F Frances MUIR
Birth: 16 Oct 1813 Dalserf (Lanark), Scotland
Chr: 16 Oct 1813 Dalserf (Lanark), Scotland
==========================================================================================
Prepared 26 Oct 2009 by:
Randy Muir
PO Box 41642
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
37204-1642
[e-mail]
MuirGenealogy.ning.com
==========================================================================================

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FAMILY NOTES
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriage (12 Jan 1791): (1)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HUSBAND NOTES: John MUIR
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Birth (abt 1768): (1)
Residence (aft 1768): (1)
General: (1)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WIFE NOTES: Elizabeth HENRY
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
General: 4 IGIs list her as "Elizabeth HENRY" & 3 as "Betty HENDRY"

(1)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHILD NOTES: Catharine MUIR
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Birth (7 Jul 1793): Coltness(1)
Chr (14 Jul 1793): (1)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHILD NOTES: Elisabeth Stewart MUIR
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Birth (7 Jul 1799): (1)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHILD NOTES: Mary MUIR
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chr (25 Feb 1807): Another IGI gives "C: 28 Feb 1807"(1)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHILD NOTES: Alicia MUIR
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Birth (18 Nov 1810): (1)
Chr (18 Nov 1810): 16 Dec. 1810, according to another IGI(1)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHILD NOTES: Frances MUIR
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Birth (16 Oct 1813): (1)
Chr (16 Oct 1813): (1)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SOURCES
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Mormon IGI.

[tree]

Dear Oliver:

This is another family that I betcha's related to John & Elizabeth (HENRY) MUIR. It's John and Betty (HENDRY) MUIR. Wouldn't surprise me at all if it's the same family.

Randy

Family Group Sheet
==========================================================================================
Father: John MUIR
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Birth: abt 1768
Residence: aft 1768 Dalserf (Lanark), Scotland
Father:
Mother:
==========================================================================================
Mother: Betty HENDRY
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Father:
Mother:
==========================================================================================
Children
==========================================================================================
1 F Janet MUIR
Birth: 20 Nov 1794 Dalserf (Lanark), Scotland
Chr: 23 Nov 1794 Dalserf (Lanark), Scotland
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 F Susan MUIR
Birth: abt 1796
Chr: 25 Dec 1796 Dalserf (Lanark), Scotland
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 F Mary MUIR
Birth: 25 Jan 1807 Dalserf (Lanark), Scotland
==========================================================================================
Prepared 26 Oct 2009 by:
Randy Muir
PO Box 41642
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
37204-1642
[e-mail]
MuirGenealogy.ning.com
==========================================================================================

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FATHER NOTES: John MUIR
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Birth (abt 1768): (1)
Residence (aft 1768): (1)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MOTHER NOTES: Betty HENDRY
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
General: (1)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHILD NOTES: Janet MUIR
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Birth (20 Nov 1794): (1)
Chr (23 Nov 1794): (1)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHILD NOTES: Susan MUIR
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chr (25 Dec 1796): (1)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHILD NOTES: Mary MUIR
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Birth (25 Jan 1807): (1)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SOURCES
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Mormon IGI.